Homosexuality & Marvel Superheroes

[eliyes]

Over at In One Ear... there are a few (very bitter) parodies of giving advice for writing minorities in comics. Here's a link to the one about writing gays. Needless to say, the advice lampoons the actual practices. The Marvel ones had me nodding and naming names at every point. I'm not as strong on the DC tropes, really, because Marvel was what I was reading a lot more of when I was young and optimistically looking for queer role models in my favourite forms of media. eta: Just to make this a little clearer: I'm only addressing the Marvel ones in the rest of this post. (Even though I actually have more variety of DC characters who are gay or bi represented in my icons! X3)

The interesting thing is that, while the handling of Northstar is the main target of these "suggestion"/criticisms on nearly every point, the first one applies not to him, but to Iceman. (I'm pretty sure it's never happened to Northstar, because what would mean admitting he'd gotten laid at some point in his life. *headwall*)

The poster boy for #4 is arguably Arnold Roth, boyhood-and-beyond friend of Steve Rogers. Yes, that's right, folks: Captain America went to art college and roomed with a gay man. The best part for me is that Cap is totally okay with this when he finds out. I'm also impressed that neither Arnie nor his long-time lover Michael die of AIDS. Instead, they suffer the type of traumas supporting characters in a superhero book often find themselves in, getting kidnapped a lot. Baron Zemo kills Michael, but Arnie dies of bone cancer -- and with him, Cap's last living tie to his past, alas. They aren't the only gay characters to show up in Captain America, either. For example, the WWII heroes Destroyer and Union Jack II were a couple (unfortunately, Union Jack was killed by a car accident in 1953 -- dying in Destroyers arms ;_;). Two long-term loving gay couples.

Right now, Marvel has some very visible homosexual heroes around: Wiccan and Hulkling over in Young Avengers, Karolina Dean in Runaways (she turns point #1 on it's head: her spouse is an alien shape-shifter who is naturally male but usually appears female to please Karolina, who is only attracted to women), and in the X-books there is (or was, depending on current state of alive-ness) Sunfire II, Northstar, Karma, and Anole. Moondragon and Captain Marvel IV are a f/f couple, although Moondragon is currently physically an actual dragon (but they're both telepaths, so They Have Their Ways). Also, Electro (the Spiderman villain) is now canonically bisexual, as is Marlo (Rick Jones's wife). That's all in the main continuity: in the 1602-verse, Angel falls in love with "John Grey", whom he believes to be male, and in the Ultimates! universe, Northstar and Colossus are a couple.

Only tangentially related: this is an awesome post discussing how being a queer fan and being a fan of slash are not the same thing. I'm often frustrated with how a lot of slash fans use the "gay" label, and how many slash writers depict exaggerated stereotypes of what they think being gay is like, and this post touched on some of the roots of the problem.

Comments

[neotoma.livejournal.com]

There is also, for the love of *god*, don't let one of the characters come out in the press as a *publicity* stunt, and then allow all the subsequent writers on the series to ignore it!

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

No, see, that advice would actually make sense. XD

[justlikemagic.livejournal.com]

OK, those were both amazing articles. I've been participating in the slash vs gay debate for-freaking-ever.

And I miss Brian and Roger, they were both such great characters.

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

I have to admit that I, like that second article's author, actually took a while to realise that there was a debate to be had, because a) I'm not straight, and b) I found slash fans long before queer ones who weren't also slash fans. I think I caught on when I was about 16-17. But yeah, it's an ongoing argument, and I think it will be for a long time. That poster has some good points, so I figured I'd try to spread the link around. ;3

Unfortunately, I only really became aware of Brian and Roger a short while ago, not being terribly entrenched in the Captain America books/fandom. I've always thought he was a likable character, but sometimes he is written more as a vehicle for American flag-waving and, well, I'm not American, so I suppose I have a somewhat lower threshold for it. (Meanwhile, that episode of X-Men: Evolution with him and Wolverine -- "Operation: Rebirth"? -- had me choking up at the end.) My point before I got sidetracked was that I wish I knew more about Union Jack II and the Destroyer, but I'm unlikely to find the pertinent issues.

[justlikemagic.livejournal.com]

Don't worry, the only Cap stuff I ever read was anything WWII, I am such a WWII nut. If my stuff wasn't in storage I could give you a list of pertinent issues, but those comics are 3+ hours away.

And I only began reading Captain America beginning with this new incarnation, because of the Bucky returning rumors, then stuck with it when Brubaker actually un-retconned him and gave a (comic book) logical explanation for why he was still alive. I like captain Bucky a lot too - a lot less flag-waving and a lot more butt-kicking.

my teal deers (fawns?), let me show you them.

[taichara]

I'll grant you the caveat of being an early-age Marvel Zombie only so far, my dude, because you missed two howlingly obvious examples of DC Point Number One, Male Edition -- one of which was actually pointed out as such by the writers -- and we both know them all too well:

1) Jan Arrah.
2) Joseph Wilson.

*wags finger* Shame on you --

(And while I'm on the subject, the Jan-Shvaughn/Sean situation manages to not only encompass both of the blog's tropes, but subvert them as well ...)


But then also coming to mind are nicely-handled 'subtle' relationships (Ayla and Vi, Mekt and the gentleman who's name I'm forgetting atm >.>;;) as well as the possibly 'coy' ones (reboot Val and Andy, Querl and Lyle. although the kiss ... yeh ;3).

Hm. Maybe the blog author has cranky snark too far up their arse and are reading the wrong books ...? ;3


(But then, I also think Marvel tries too hard. And often in ways that really get under my skin. Or maybe I'm just bitter over how they made the Rawhide Kid into a horrible queer parody -- of the character and his history, and of gay folks, seeing as how they made such a spectacle out of the release of that series ;P)



((edited for [one hopes] clarity, lest your friends come and shoot me. but I refuse to pass up the double world-play my dialect offers me ;P))

Re: my teal deers (fawns?), let me show you them.

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

All the mentioning of Vertigo and Wildstorm kinda threw me with the DC ones. It was fairly late when I wrote this post. ^^;

DC Point Number One, Male Edition -- one of which was actually pointed out as such by the writers -- and we both know them all too well:

1) Jan Arrah.
2) Joseph Wilson.

*facepalm* Yes. When the writers themselves have said that a female love interest, however temporary, was introduced simply because the fans kept asking if the character was gay... Of course, most of Joey's supposed womanizing happened when he'd been replaced by an evil clone who was possessed. All those Trigon-tainted souls of Azarath wanted some action, hence the vast variety of ladies involve? *facepalm the second*

At least Shvaughn was an interesting character and they didn't give Jan a string of booty-hos. I like her. I know a lot of people think that having her turn out to have been born male undermines her as a proactive female role-model, and I know other people like to pretend that her years as a woman in a relationship with Jan are unimportant to the characterization of either of them but, damn it all, I like Shvaughn. And I like Sean. I like Officer Erin, SP, period.

The Legion is kind of the go-to team for finding more queer relationships, aren't they? Pre-boot and re-boot, to an extent. Val & Andy are wonderfully devoted even if it's not a Relationship relationship, and the kiss... yeh. ;3

Mekt and the gentleman who's name I'm forgetting atm >.>;;

Nigel? Wait, that's Sun Emperor... ;3 I know who you mean, the guy on Winath that he seems to have met during The Gap. I can't seem to find his name anywhere. :/

(The Rawhide Kid rewrite is a victim of "play your character for laughs and make them really campy", alas. I have no idea what the hell they thought they were doing, there.)

((Dude, you're my friend, too. Friends don't let friends shoot their other friends. And the wordplay is fine. :3))

Megaloceros-sized teal deers!

[taichara]

*facepalm* Yes. When the writers themselves have said that a female love interest, however temporary, was introduced simply because the fans kept asking if the character was gay...

I don't know that I would call Shvaughn "temporary", all things being considered, and Jan was the major example I had in mind. This is also the character that Giffen wrote in his character notes was "maybe gay", remember? And they had to head that off at the pass, because the fans were ahead of him by decades --

The pink and white uniform surely didn't help. Or the black and green. :D


Of course, most of Joey's supposed womanizing happened when he'd been replaced by an evil clone who was possessed. All those Trigon-tainted souls of Azarath wanted some action, hence the vast variety of ladies involve? *facepalm the second*

And don't forget the sudden sort-of interest in Kory and Donna!

Yup. Damned randy, those Azarathians. Probably from being repressed all their lives *sage nod*


At least Shvaughn was an interesting character and they didn't give Jan a string of booty-hos. I like her.

I've always liked Shvaughn. Sean I like somewhat less, but only because the switch really was unnecessary (and probably Giffen and the Bierbaums "getting back" at Shvaughn being written in the first place) and the personality I knew never really came back. Sean didn't have the spine Shvaughn did.


I know a lot of people think that having her turn out to have been born male undermines her as a proactive female role-model,

These people annoy me because they almost have a point, so it's hard to just tell them to piss off -- consider why he became a she. Rather shallow.


and I know other people like to pretend that her years as a woman in a relationship with Jan are unimportant to the characterization of either of them

And these people are fucking delusional and need to die in a fire. Preferably the same fire roasting the card-carrying Bobby Drake Is Gay! mavens.


but, damn it all, I like Shvaughn. And I like Sean. I like Officer Erin, SP, period.

Period?

Even the reboot version? ;D


The Legion is kind of the go-to team for finding more queer relationships, aren't they? Pre-boot and re-boot, to an extent. Val & Andy are wonderfully devoted even if it's not a Relationship relationship, and the kiss... yeh. ;3

I keep thinking there are others that were at least hinted at, too, but that might just be old speculation and the fact that yes, the Legion is pretty much the go-to team for the subject ~


Nigel? Wait, that's Sun Emperor... ;3

And Sun Emperor likes his ladies. Likes them crispy, to be precise ;3


I know who you mean, the guy on Winath that he seems to have met during The Gap. I can't seem to find his name anywhere. :/

*raids the Legion Helpfile* It's not there either! Augh!

This brainfart will drive me crazy now D|


(The Rawhide Kid rewrite is a victim of "play your character for laughs and make them really campy", alas. I have no idea what the hell they thought they were doing, there.)

I don't want to think about it. It makes me want to burn Marvel to the ground.

teal moose are eating your houseplants

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

I don't know that I would call Shvaughn "temporary", all things being considered, and Jan was the major example I had in mind.

I was thinking specifically of Joey when I said "however temporary". Shvaughn certainly wasn't a short-term relationship. She had real staying power. :3

The pink and white uniform surely didn't help. Or the black and green. :D

I honestly can't decide which was worse. The pink and white is probably Disney-safe, but.. pink and white. And the black and green had the giant arrow coming up from his crotch. And the studs on the legs in some versions.

I frickin' love that costume. XD

Damned randy, those Azarathians. Probably from being repressed all their lives *sage nod*

This is what I'm figuring! And the Trigon influence surely can't have helped. I mean, come on. Look at the man giant loin-cloth/skirt-wearing demon. The first step in his plans to take over Earth involved sex. The Azarathians didn't stand a chance.

the personality I knew never really came back. Sean didn't have the spine Shvaughn did.

This is true. I think he felt more confident as a woman. Then again, if my boyfriend left for 5 years to commune with the dead of his species, my planet was taken over by evil aliens with way too many teeth, and I was forced to reverse my sex change just prior to the planet exploding, I think I'd be less than peppy. It's possible that, if v4 had continued, Sean would have acclimatized to all these changes.

Period?

Even the reboot version? ;D

XD No. I thought of that after I posted it, but by that point I was on my way to work.

I keep thinking there are others that were at least hinted at, too, but that might just be old speculation and the fact that yes, the Legion is pretty much the go-to team for the subject ~

I have actually seen people say that Kono seemed to be more interested in women than men. I don't think she'd be snapping so many pictures of guys in the shower if that were the case. (She seemed specifically interested in Cam, and you know, I can't say as I blame her. Especially since, if I were a shape-shifter as versatile as he is, I would made showering really easy by just making everything easier to wash as I went. Also, Cam is awesome. And orange. :D)

There's been talk of Lyle and Condo Arlik, I believe, and I read that in the Archie Legion there were some canonically gay political reps on the UP council, apparently.