Am I technically even a slasher?

[eliyes]

Sometimes I have difficulty reconciling myself to my participation in the the greater slash 'community'. I mean, I've been reading m/m romantic or pornographic fiction since, oh, late grade 8 or so. I've been writing it since high school. But a lot of stories, I hate. I do! And the attitudes of many slashers really get up my nose.

Maybe this is just an example of Sturgeon's Law in action, and 90% of everything is crud. Maybe I just think about it too much -- after all, in my first year of university I wrote a paper on the Westernization of yaoi fandom as compared to yaoi fandom in Japan and that Occidental native, slash; and I wrote a paper on what makes something homoerotic for males versus females as subject matter.

Sometimes I just get so irritated at slash, because it's alienating -- and no, I don't mean for the "norms", I mean for men. If every time I hugged or stood close to or smiled at someone of the same gender as me was interpreted as a sign of sexual interest, I'd become a hermit! It's like my appreciation of (well-written, dammit) m/m fiction works in direct conflict with my desire to see men allowed to be more open and comfortable.

It's dehumanizing. It pisses me off and makes me stop reading fanfic for stretches at a time.

*sigh*

Comments

[devilindupriest.livejournal.com]

That's the most well-reasoned discussion of the objectification of men in slash that I've ever read.

With that said, I maintain a firm opinion that we'll get over it. Men have an inherient understanding that no matter how much we might like it otherwise, porn and reality have almost nothing in common.

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

That's a good point. I shall hope for the best!

[devilindupriest.livejournal.com]

For the record, I'm not disagreeing with any of your points. Just want to make that clear. I just think men learned from the past two decades of trying to defend their own porn choices as 'fantasy' to keep their mouths shut and not be offended/influenced by stereotypes that affect them directly.

Oh, and I'm really hoping I said hi at some point before this, because I have no idea when or why I friended you. *waves sheepishly*

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

I understood you weren't disagreeing, and I think you've got a good point yourself. :3

...I don't think you did. No, wait, you might have. I know I've been wondering why you friended me for over a month -- possibly we bonded over EXO Squad in the distant past? It's all very fuzzy. In any case: Hi! Welcome, from wherever you came and whyever you might be here.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_divya_/]

I don't know. I can't feel too badly for men. Because, okay, do you mean "interpreted as a sign of sexual interest" by the person of the same gender with whom you're having the moment? Or are you talking about lookers-on?

Because. Please believe me, every time you hug or stand close to or smile at someone of the same gender while in public, there's a guy watching you, wondering if you two are going to kiss. And if you were to try to explain a deep yet platonic female relationship to him, he'd say, "So just because you've never made out with her... does that mean you never will? Because I'd really like it if you did."

And yet, women are still more innocently demonstrative with each other than men are, regardless of the fact that guys love to take someone ELSE's platonic relationship and use it for their own titillation, and women know it. I think if guys are shying away from being open with each other, it's because they know what they're thinking when they see two women together doing anything at all. It has very little to do with me, I think.

(sorry if I'm being bitchy, it's just that after years of having my most important friendship reduced to "so have you guys ever done it?" for more years than I can count, I almost enjoy objectifying men back. And even when I'm going, "Man, I hope they kiss," I'm still more about them kissing because they like each other, not because I think it's pretty. It's still more personal than what they're doing to me. anyway! apoooooooologies!)

[taichara]

I have known many, many guy friends who not only do not fit this profile, but would be very offended that you make such a knee-jerk assessment of how they may think.

I think I shall join them.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_divya_/]

Well, there's always a risk of offending when one generalizes without explicitly stating that that's what's happening, right?

[taichara]

Generalization is a bad thing. It makes you look like a ignorant fool. And in this case, certainly doesn't help you defend the issue at hand.

Sorry, no prize for you.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_divya_/]

I think you must be very very young.

(Eli, apologies. Really.)

[taichara]

Keep deluding yourself, dear :)

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

*facepalm*

It's okay, I posted a rant and an argument broke out in the comments. That's actually pretty normal.

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

I am talking about lookers-on.

So are you saying that this attitude is just payback or turnabout or something like that?

[http://users.livejournal.com/_divya_/]

Hmm, not quite? When you use the words "payback" and "turnabout" it suggests the concept of revenge, which is not where my attitude is coming from. There's no malice involved or anything.

When I was very young, I used to be offended when (SOME, not ALL, obviously) guys did it to me and my friends. Yet, they assured me that it was just harmless fun, so I would never automatically think that they'd feel dehumanized by being perceived as sexual objects in the same way that they themselves do to others. That would be hypocritical of them, and I give them more credit than that. So I guess it's turnabout of a sort, but not in a mean way, I hasten to add. I've just been desensitized over the years, that's all.

And really, women slashing men, to me, is a little different because women (generally) tend to concentrate on the relationship between the guys. Men (generally) do not care what the relationship is between the women. I've been told this by guys. So I feel that when women are slashing guys, they're at least interested in who the guys are, so it's less impersonal. Generally. Obviously.

Btw, did you get my email from yesterday? I tried sending one to eliyes at livejournal dot com, but I didn't know if it was connected to a real email account or not.

Off to work now, bye!

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

I did not get an email! Try a resend? hugmonster at gmail dot com.

I think I see your point. I just sometimes fear that I'm contributing to spreading an attitude that will ultimately encourage guys to not be physically comfortable with other people, and it makes me sad.

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

Hang on, no, I got the email. Hotmail sent it into y Junk file because it didn't know the addy. ^^;

[http://users.livejournal.com/_divya_/]

Yay! Now go read the second one, too. *g*

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

*ogles the ring*

[http://users.livejournal.com/_divya_/]

Hee.

[taichara]

Welcome to my world.

I've watched the downward slide, and I've decided to reject that reality and replace it with my own -- and if that means reading almost zero fanfic, so be it.

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

I may get to that point. I do go there sometimes -- you yourself have seen me in full 'not reading fanfic! no! take it away!' mode. But I still want to write it, and some of it will probably be slash.

I have slasher's guilt? Is there even a word for this?

[taichara]

Well, see, I don't write Teh Porns so I don't really have to worry about it to begin with *snerks*

Probably not, but ei. If you don't conatantly write slash, you write characters who're essentially chicks with wangs stapled on, and don't insist that every single relationship involves screwing each other, I think you can probably survive ...

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

... I think you lost a word in there, but I shall take it as a positive statement and an outline of what not to do.

[taichara]

Essentially yes on both counts.

[spaztik-freak.livejournal.com]

Well, I can apreciate what you are saying.
And, as a male, I have experienced this automatic assumption that if I hug/innocently touch/kiss on the cheek[I'm from Montreal, so we all do this - it's a french thing] it's that I'm hitting/flirting/alluding to a romantic/intimate relationship with whomever I am in contact with - male or female.
In a way, I think that despite the fact that Western cultures are now becoming more secularized, the stereotypes of men are being rethought and people are trying to find a new way to pidgeon-hole people. The fact that the new outlook/comprotment of males is becoming like Latin men means that there has been change, but the minds are still unwilling to release the stereotypes [I think they'll need the new stereotype before they'll feel comfortable to drop it].
Either way, I think the fact that about 90% of the written stuff is bunk doesn't mean you should stop reading. Because if you did, you'd miss out on the 10% that's gold.
Even though I agree that some of the work is alienizing for the men, I think it's a natural progression for society, and that it will get better. [However, I'm sure it will get worse before it does get better] This is the human condition, and cannot be escaped, no matter how hard we try.
So, don't give up reading or writting slash, but the taking breaks is the only way to stop you from howling at the moon.

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

It makes me wonder what the new stereotypes will be. On the one hand, there are people who interpret the least little thing as sexually charged, and then on the other we have the "metrosexual" thing. Really, I should be paying rapt attention to the changing of social attitudes in my lifetime, but it's really irritating sometimes.

I probably will just keep taking breaks and coming back. Thank you.

[apathocles.livejournal.com]

I do agree with you to a fair extent, although het 'shippers do it, too. Really, I just want to be able to have a conversation with/show affection for anyone, no matter their gender, without people assuming that we're SO DOING IT OMG.

I think there's a line that a lot of people cross. Even when I'm going 'OMG THEY TOUCHED EACH OTHER OTP OMG OMG OMG', I'm not being serious about it; I can recognise that I'm just interpreting (or making up) subtext, and that, in all likelihood, the characters aren't actually interested at all. It's people who honestly think that affection does equal romance/sexual attraction who bug me.

*uses Red Alert/Inferno icon of OMG OTP for the helluvit* XD

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

Do they? I suppose I poke the het 'shippers end of things so infrequently I hadn't noticed. (Although that may change if, say, I decide to write a bunch of stories about a m/f couple. God, it would mean jumping into a different part of the fandom, wouldn't it? Maybe I should stick with Booster/Beetle/Bea.)

*gasp!* You mean you don't really think members of your country's government are engaged in illicit sexual relationships???

Okay, joking aside, you've sort of hit the nail on the head. There are all kinds of affectionate relationships that don't involve sex. Some people, you just like, but not like like. *devolves into junior high vocab* So far as I know, most real people do not have sex nearly as much as people in fic do. (Especially fic where EVERYONE is with SOMEONE, which is very different from the real world and always strikes me as some kind of compulsion on the writer's part.) Friendship, close camaraderie, near-familial bonds, actual-familial bonds (*cough 'Wincest' cough*), etc. A lot of writers I've encountered -- usually not the especially good ones -- don't seem to be aware that these are possibilities without sex. Which is... rather sad.

I'm not going to get started on the topic of people making assumptions about my real life relationships, because I really don't like ranting about my mother on my journal.

[thebeenbin.livejournal.com]

Agreeing that the "slightest physical contact or sign of affection = sex lust sex lust sex" thing is obnoxious and unrealistic as hell, whatever the gender/species combination, whether fictional or in the real world.

Which is not to say that, like someone else said, I don't make tons of "teehee so married" comments at the drop of a hat about whatever show I'm watching at the time (see: Beast Wars, gith rp). But I'm being silly and I know it, and I know that I don't really buy into that whole line of thought.

Which is a good thing, too, because people who buy into that miss out on all the best things in life.

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

PLATONIC CUDDLING.

I am a very touchy-feely person. (It seems to drive some of my less touchy-feely friends up the wall.) I mean, if I'm comfortable with you, I will puppy pile. I will use you as furniture and let you do the same to me. I will tickle you and pet your hair and poke you a lot and hug you a lot and probably smooch your forehead or cheek or shoulder and maybe even lick you if I'm being silly. I will wrestle with you and cuddle with you and sleep right by your side, hold your hand , throw an arm around your shoulder or waist, pick you up and spin you around, give you a piggy back ride if you're littler than me enough, and basically twine with you like kudzu. (Unless you don't want me to, in which case I will do my best to rein it all in so I don't make you uncomfortable.)

I AM TOUCHY-FEELY.

All of this is at a complete disconnect from any kind of sexual anything, and always has been.

[thebeenbin.livejournal.com]

Ahh, peoplefurniture. XD That used to be the tradition back with all my middle/highschool friends, particularly when movies and a couch were involved. It took me a while to get used to it, but for a while I did. /nostalgia

I'm actually in a weird place when it comes to this sort of thing. I *can* like platonic contact and am sometimes needier than I think I am, but it's really limited due to hypersensitivity to touch or whatever the hell is wrong with me, which more often that not causes me to *not* like it without other factors being in place. Sometimes my own head confuses me. .-.

Tickling, however, is right out. XD It actually hurts and makes me panic, damned if I know why.

...I'm not sure I had a point to this, it's late. X3 Totally agree with the last line, anyway.

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

Not always liking contact is why you must carefully telegraph when you are not comfortable with it, and of course the tickling thing means, alas, no tickling. That's okay. I'm not really ticklish, so it's a wasted effort on me -- but I have a few friends friends and one big muscular toughguy cousin who are INSANELY ticklish. MWAHAHA. Not in a panic way, though.

Points can be lost! It's a conversation. :3 With typing. :3

[thebeenbin.livejournal.com]

It is a typeversation :O

[eliyes.livejournal.com]

Sir, I approve of this word! Let us add it to the dictionary immediately!

Dictionary: *falls from the sky!*